Scottish Hillforts collage, Mug
Scottish Hillforts collage, Mug
by cooldudeproducts
FIFA 21 [PC]

Scottish Club Football achievements not including the Old Firm (No offence I like the Old Firm)

As a Scottish football fan, I support the Old Firm in Europe, and are proud of them as institutions and their acheivements, but here is a page on Scottish clubs other than Old Firm, including defeats and victories over the Old Firm, by Scottish clubs. This is as I am a fan of a different Scottish team to either Rangers or Celtic, and to be fair am happy when a Scottish team beats them, as it makes the league seem even better, and is good fun and exciting.

Defeats of Old Firm

Defeats of Scotland's biggest teams, by Scotland's other teams., and their achievements across the world,

Great Moments that prove the Old Firm, are not unbeatable, in any way to end of December 2021

62 Scottish Cups have not been won by the Old Firm, plus 99 Runner ups,

29 League Cups, with 53 Runner ups, Plus 1 Southern League Cup that was a national Trophy that season, the forerunner to the competition, 

19 League Titles, 59 Runner ups, and 91 third places,

1 European Cup Winners Cup, Aberdeen 1983.

3 World Club Championships (See below), Renton, Hibs and Hearts, 1 Runner up

1 Uefa Cup Runner Up, Dundee United,

1 European Super Cup, Aberdeen,

1 English London Charity Shield (Forerunner of the charity shield) (Shared), Queens Park,

2 English Cup Runners Up, Queens Park,

3 Scottish Inter City League's 

1 Scottish Victory Cup and Runner up, re WW1, (One off)

1 And one more Southern Regional League runner up, when it was effectively the national league, at the end of  WW2 and a 3rd place, (One off in the sense of it being national) and 1 Scottish Victory Cup re WW2, runner up, (One off) 

You could also class a play off between the 1940 war emergency league west v east as a runner up in the Scottish War Emergency League, Play off as a minor trophy runner up,  and the national league proper lasted 5 games, with non old Firm teams taking 2nd and 3rd. But most 1940s leagues were regionalised into 2 groups and worse than that were disrupted massively by the war, in terms of who could play for each team,  to a extent they are not really even minor trophies in a way, but they were successes for whoever won them, but not the same kind of comps as before.

Plus 1 Coronation Cup effectively a British Cup, Runner up, to Celtic,  (One off) and 1 Mungo Cup, a 1950s extra Scottish Cup, runner up, (One off) 2 1960s Summer Cup and Summer Cup runner ups (Two off), (No Rangers and Celtic in these Summer Cups, unlike other minor trophies I think, the top 3 comps, the 2 cups and top tier, and European trophies, are the major competitions) )  4 Dryborough Cups, and 1 runner up out of 6, and 1 runner up, and 1 Anglo-Scottish Cup, and 3 Runner ups out of 10. of this 1970s, to 1980, trophy, and 7 Tennent's Sixes out of 10, plus 10 runner ups, 

Rangers record defeat is 10-2 to Airdrie in 1886.

Celtic's record defeat 8-0 to Motherwell 1937

Humiliating defeats

Berwick Rangers 1 Glasgow Rangers 0 ex-Scottish territory, where a large amount of the people claim to be as Scottish as English, defeat Rangers in shock result.

Celtic 1 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 3 sees Celtic lose great player, as manager in 2000 when Caley were a 2nd tier team, united together from Caledonian and Inverness Thistle less than 10 years before.

1897 Arthurlie 4 Celtic 2 Non league beats league,

1987 Hamilton 1 Rangers 0, Shock as high spending Gers, lose to part timers in Cup

Rangers lowest League position is sixth, once in the 1920s, and a number of times they have been fifth, once in the 1890s, once in the nineteen sixties, once in 1980, and once in eighty six the same decade. Of course when they were demoted due to financial debates, they were top of the 4th tier, then top of the 3rd tier, then only 3rd in the 2nd tier behind a shock relegation of Hearts and Hibs, who finished above them, with them beating Hibs in the play offs behind champions Hearts and though losing to Motherwell to keep them down  a season longer, and then going up the next season top of the league. With the Dons ahead of them in the top tier the next 2 seasons.

Celtic's lowest position was just as remarkable. Before 1940, Celtic's lowest position was fifth in 1911, and 1903, the 1940 season was uncompleted.

Straight after WW2 Celtic had a poor time, and many other teams won trophies, indeed 7th, 12th, then sixth and fifth, saw Celtic worse than fifth 8 times till sixty five, indeed having a minor flirt with relegation in the early part. Strangely just like how the early 80s was a bad era for Rangers and they still won trophies, the Celtic team still won trophies in this era, even a league, despite only finishing in the top 2 twice. Then it was 9 in a row, fifth in 78, fifth in 1990, but since sixty five, they have finished out the top 3 just 4 times, and even 3rd and 4th were rarities. In the 1980s Rangers did complete a period of finishing out of the top tier top 2 for 7 seasons, whereas their demotion era was just six seasons. There was a period of five seasons where they were out of the top 2 in the 1900s, but other than that, they were as top 2 as Celtic. Before the 2010s it must be said Rangers and Celtic had spent their whole eras in the top tier. It is this domination that makes it a experience and fun when a other Scottish team beat them, it's like the U2 song Can't live with or without you, Most non old firm fans would hate to admit, it, but rivalries are what makes football great, and so it can be part of the fun, along with supporting your own team, and really just hoping Scotttish teams win in Europe. Scottish football is not just the Old Firm, but they add to it and the tension. Just like Hearts Aberdeen, Hibs and Dundee United, then the next level of teams, it is all these teams that make it a fun league.

The Old Firm add to Scottish Football in being somebody to beat, in a League with more team kit colours per team than most leagues, None of the Big 6 sides, have the same colour or pattern shirt.

There is no doubt non-old Firm, teams, have achieved more in club football, than the Old Firm, especially when including freindlies,

Rangers # Record defeat: 2–10 (against Airdrieonians, Friendly, 6 February 1886).
Rangers # Record league defeat: 0–6 (against Dumbarton, 4 May 1892).
Rangers # Record Scottish Cup defeat: 0–6 (against Aberdeen, 10 April 1954).

Celtic # Record defeat (all): 0-8 against Motherwell in 1937.
Celtic # Record defeat (home): 0-5 against Hearts in 1895.
Celtic # Record defeat (post war home): 1-5 Aberdeen 1947.

List of World Club Champions, Scotland did well in, weltpokal in german, Pucharu Interkontynentalnego in Polish, Including the first ones in the 19thC, to June 2006.

1887 Hibernian 2 Preston North End 1, officially tagged as the World Championship,

1888 Renton 4 West Brom 1 Become world champions

1901 Totenham Hotspur 0 Hearts 0 1902 Hearts 3 Totenham Hotspur 1 Hearts become World Champions "world championship", though this was between the two cup winners, so in a sense, less a world championship, than a world cup winners cup,

Of course Celtic played in one in the sixties,

You could even say Sunderland beat Hearts in a match in 1895 tagged as a world championship, so Hearts World Champs runner up, that was 2 league winners.

Other big matches include

1983 Aberdeen 2 Real Madrid 1 Aberdeen Win the European Cup Winners Cup

1983 SV Hamburg 0 Aberdeen 0 Sup[er Cup 1st leg, 

1983 Aberdeen 2 SV Hamburg 0, Aberdeen lift the Super Cup

1987 IFK Gothenberg 1 Dundee United 0 Uefa Cup Final 1st leg, 

1987 Dundee United 1 IFK Gothenburg 1, they draw their home match so lose 2-1 in Uefa Cup,

Then in terms of other matches

Well first of all, Queens Park, have also reached 2 FA cup semi finals, on top of the two where they reached the final.

Record Scottish wins in Fa Cup Cliftonville 0 Partick 11 , and Crewe 0 Queens Park 10, and Queens Park 15 Manchester 0 , all in the 19th Century, most notable result Queens Park six Aston villa one, Scottish teams stopped entering in late 19th century.

Plus in tours notable results include,
Aberdeen beat Krakov 9 to 1 in the 1910s, (Poland who have reached World Cup Semi finals, on occasions, had not started football as early as Scotland), but beat Slava Prague in same tour. and a 1920s Ferencváros, and a 1920s Leipzig. Then Cape Town Select and a South  Africa select in the 1920s, and Viking Stavenger six one in the 1930s,  and a Copenhagen select, and in the 1930s, Western Province of South  Africa, Southern Transvaal, and South Africa twice,
Airdieonians also beat a Copenhagen select and Banks of Dee, Aberdeen Junior team beat Brann Bergen, in the 1920s,
Cowdenbeath lost by just 1 to 0 to a German Olympic select in 1928, Dumbarton beat IFK Gothernurg in 1922, Dundee beat Madrid, Bilbao and Valencia in 1923, and Barcelona, Madrid and Deportiva La Coruna in 1924, Glasgow Uni drew with ajax in 19 twenty five, while Hearts beat a Danish select in the 1910s, Hibs beat Rapid Vienna in the 1920s,
Motherwell beat Swansea Town in the 1920s, plus Madrid (for a unoffical Copa Del Rey) and Celta Vigo,  then a Selecta in Argentina of Rosario, a weakened Argentina select, a combined weakened Uruguay Argentinian select, a interior league select, Penarol, and got a draw with a Rio De Janeiro select, then in the 1930s beat A Antwerp select, and beat 2 of the best Paris teams, and Liege select, while Queens Park drew with a Danish select in the 1900s, and beat Grasshoppers, and Aik Stockholm in the  1920S, and a Danish select, even Raith beat a Copenhagen select in the 1920s, Saint Mirren, beat Notts County in the 1920s, and Santander and Gijon, A Scottish junior league select beat Brann Bergen in the 1920s, While Third Lanark, beat a Lisbon select in the 1910s, Benfica, a Porto select, and Vigo, then in the 1920s a pile of North Ameircan cities from Canada to the USA, including Bethelehem Steel, and New York Celtics. Then in the 1920s, they beat a Argentinian and a Uruguayan select, there were lots of friendly wins in the 19th Century by the lieks of Queens Park over English teams and vice Versa.

Then in terms of other honours, the Scottish minor Inter cities football league, competed in by the big cities of the central belt was won by Hearts twice and Third Lanark once of the 4 times it was completed. A Scottish Victory cup was competed in the 1910s, at the end of WW1, with no Scottish cup, so this was it really, it won by St Mirren over Hearts, also Hibs were runners up in a 1940s Scottish Victory cup, and one Southern Regional League, the season it was effectively a national league, with Aberdeen third, the league had been split into a north and south, during the war and the teams before that season were muddled by war call ups, so players from all over the place played everywhere. Also Aberdeen won the Southern League cup, the season it was a back to normal for the players really, post war national competition, before the proper unification,
In the fifties Hibs were runners up in the Coronation cup which was effectively a elite British cup, and Aberdeen were runners up in the Mungo cup effectively a extra elite Scottish cup for the season,
Hibs in the sixties won a Summer cup, a very minor trophy for top teams, with Aberdeen runner up, plus Aberdeen in the same decade with the British,   arrival in North America competed in a US soccer league, and were runners up, as Washington's team. in the Atlantic division,

Of the six times the Dryborough Cup, a well sponsored national cup comp for elite Scottish teams was competed in, in the 1970s, Aberdeen won it twice and Hibs twice.

In the 1970s the Anglo Scottish cups occurred even with Irish teams for half of it, in a British Isles Texaco cup, but only for teams not in Europe, and Scottish teams of the 11 times it was competed in, it was won just once by Scots with St Mirren, but had 1 Runner up with them as well, and another with Hearts, and another with Airdrieonians.

Of Scotland; indoor 1980s football tournament the Tennents sixes, of the 10 times it was competed in, Aberdeen won twice, Hearts twice, Partick once, Hibs once and Dundee once, with Dundee, Morton, Motherwell (Thrice), Hearts, St Mirren (Twice) St Johnstone and Airdrieonians making up the Runner ups,  

Then of the Scottish Challenge Cup the Scottish national trophy started in the 1990s, for teams below the top tier, up till 2020 when I wrote this, the Old Firm, have competed in it just a few times as a senior team (Rangers) , and a few times as a Youth team, but only the other Scottish teams have won it, other than one win by Rangers, and one Runner up, for them V Raith, and that despite from the late 2010s, the top 2 Welsh league, inlcluding TNS, and also Northern Irish league, teams competing, for a few years, and for 2 seasons, 2 English fifth tier teams, including Wrexham once, and a few seasons, 2 Republic of Irish league teams competing, and on only 1 occasion did a Welsh team reach the final, on no other occasion did a team outside Scotland reach the final, even Berwick. 

Also in Europe, Hibs have had 1 European Cup Quarter and then Semi final, and 1 European Cup Winners Cup Quarter Final, Kilmarnock 1 Fairs Cup Quarter then semi final, Dundee have reached 1 European Cup Quarter then Semi Final, and 1 Fairs Cup Quarter then Semi Final, While Dunfermline have reached 2 European Cup Winners Cup Quarter Finals, then 1 Semi Final, and 1 Fairs Cup Quarter Final,  while Aberdeen have had 1 European Cup Quarter Final, 2 European Cup Winners Cup Quarter Finals, and 2 following Semi Finals. While Dundee United have had 3 Uefa Cup Quarter Finals, then 2 semi final placings, and 1 European Cup Quarter Final followed by a Semi Final. Plus Hearts have had a European Cup Winners Cup Quarter Final. 

Top results for these teams in Europe include other than priorly stated, include the Dons beating Reykavik 10 1 in sixty seven, a record win for a non old firm, Scottish team in Europe, plus Standard Liege, and Real Zaragoza, but losing to both on Agg as of defeats, the same against Honved, in the 1970s, drawing with Tottenham, but going well out on Agg, a lose and a win v Dusseldorf, a lose and draw v Frankfurt, agains knocked out both times, knocking out Autria Vienna after win and draw in the 1980s,  knocking out Ipswich in the 1980s Uefa Cup after a draw and win, the many times winners that decade. a win and knocked out by lose to Sv Hamburg in that comp, crushing Sion 7 0 in 1982, ECWC, and best of all a draw then win v Bayern Munich, and a win five 1 and draw over Waterschi of Belgium, in the semi, a lose and win the next season over the Hungarian cup winners the next season, a lose and win against Dynamo Berlin in the European Cup, knocked out, and then in late 80s a knock out lose and win v Feyonoord, then more recently knocking Dnipro out of the Europa League, in the 2000s, and holding Bayern Munich to a draw in the 1st leg, then being crushed and knocked out by, after a 4 0 defeat of Copenhagen, and draw with Lokomotiv Moscow, and more recently still wins over Croatia's best or 2nd best team in the 2010s, Rijeka, and a Dutch team Gronigen, not forgetting in the 1970s a knock out win double over Celta Vigo of Spain, and lose and draw with Juventus, and a draw and defeat in extra time to premiership Burnley in the 2010s, Scottish teams non old firm I mean, have knocked out teams from Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Latvia, Macedonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Luxembourg, Bosnia, Sweden, Liechtenstein, the Faeroe Islands, Romania, Albania, Poland, Cyprus, Lithuania, Ukraine, Estonia, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Malta,  Bulgaria, Andorra, and much much more, like the USSR, as of  Hearts in the early 1990s, via a win and draw over Dnepr,  Plus beat Viking Stavenger in the 2020s, and only lost by 1 goal v Sporting Lisbon,     

Dundee had a   8 1 win over Cologne, in the sixties European Cup, a draw and win over Sporting Lisbon, and double win over Anderlecht, and a draw and defeat with leeds in the late sixties Fairs Cup and both wins and defeats with both Cologne and AC Milan in the 1970s.

Dundee United have had 2 wins over Barca in the sixties fairs cup and 2 again in the 1980s uefa cup, plus a defeat and lose to Juve in the sixties, a big win over Monaco in the 1980s Uefa cup, with a smaller lose, and same so v Borussia Mochengladbach, a knockout win and draw over PSV Eindhoven, and win and draw over Werder Bremen, and Standard Liege and Rapid Vienna, and a defeat and win v Roma in the European Cup Semi final, and draw and knockout defeat v Man Utd, in the 1980s Uefa, a draw and win in the 1980s Uefa Cup over Borussia Mochengladbach again, a draw and lose to Dinamo Buchartest in the late 1980s ECWC, and win on Agg over the great Wroclaw. more recently.
and also more recently drew with and lost to a Turkish team, Trabzonspor, and knocked out France's Lens in the 1980s with a  win and lose,  

While Dunfermline have had,
In the sixties a lose then knock out win over Everton, and almost over Valencia, but a play off knocked them out, this was the famous six 2 comeback over a 4 0 deficit, Barca eclipsed v PSG, but the play off was lost 1 0. they also beat Stuttgart in a win and draw, Zaragoza in a lose and draw, Olympiakos of Pireus, in a win and defeat, West Brom in a win and draw, and all that in the sixties,

Hearts drew with Zaragoza in the sixties, and went out with a win and lose v Bayern in the 1980s, Uefa, and beat Athletico Madrid in the 1990s but went out on Agg after a lose, and went out to Stutgart in the 2000s, despite a lose and win, same with Bordeux, plus beat Sporting Braga, in Uefa, with a win and draw, and beat Basel, and won and got a knock out lose to Zagreb, and in the 2010s, drew and lost to Liverpool, and in the 1990s beat and lost to Bologna, getting knocked out, also in the 1980s they lost to and drew with PSG,

Hibs, beat German European cup comptetitors Rot Weiss Essen, and drew to go throigh in the fifties, and the Swedes, and in the sixties, drew with Barca and beat them in the fairs cup, and drew with Roma, and lose big to Roma. same so to Valencia once, but then also in that comp, won and lost, then lost in a play off, and beat Porto in a win and lose, and lost and beat Napoli, in a knock out lose, and win and drew with Leipzig, and drew and lost with Leeds, and won and lost with SV Hamburg out on away goals, and in the 1970s, won big with a small lose to Sporting Lisbon in ECWC to go through, and had a win and knock out lose to Split, and 2 draws with Leeds, in a knock out, in mid 70s Uefa, beat Rosenburg 9 1 in the 1970s, 2 defeats to Juve, and a win and lose to Liverpool in a knock out by the Kop team, with a win and knock out lose v strasbourg,

While Kilmarnock, have had a lose and big five 1 win against Eintracht Frankfurt in the sixties, a draw and big lose to real madrid in the European cup, a win and huge win 7 2 over Antwerp in the fairs cup, a win over Leipzig,  and lose, then a lose and draw with leeds, and a draw iand lose with Nice in the 1990s, Raith of course had their 2 0 and 2 1 defeats to Bayern Munich in the 1990s, a moral victory of sorts as they were leading for a while, in Munich,

While St Johnstone had in the 1970s a lose and then knockout win to get past SV Hamburg, and a lose then draw with Monaco in the 1990s, and a draw and win over Rosenburg in the 2010s, Plus also drew away from home with Galatasaray and Linz in the 2020s

St Mirren had a draw and lose with St Etienne in the 1980s, and lose then win with Slavia Prague, and a draw and lose with mechelen who won the European Cup Winners Cup that season.

Also Inverness drew and lost to a Romanian team in their only 2010s entry in Europe.  

I should add Aberdeen beat Chelsea 4 1 in the 1938 Empire trophy, and Hearts, Brentford 1 0, There were only 4 teams from each nation in the tournament, and Hibs beat Spurs 2 1 after a draw in the couple of decades later Coronation cup, and Hibs beat  Newcastle United 4 0.


I must add, Aberdeen and their sixties runner up in the USA position, was along with it a situation where they were top of the so called Eastern Divison, they then played Los Angeles Wolves really Wolves and lost six five, aet

There have been many friendlies played by Scottish club sides across the years, and those in the 19th Century would surely have been the equivalent of tests matches, the best challenges of Scottish v English teams, with in later decades Scottish v all sorts of nation's teams. By the late 20th Century a friendly even with a mini tourney could not always be seen as a genuine competitive fixture, but some then, could be seen as fun challenges, but some in earlier 20th century as I say were like test matches. Well Motherwell claim the greatest friendly tour in Scottish football history. The tour of South America where they lost to a number of sides, but also beat some, including a weakened Argentinian select, and a weakened Argentina, Uruguay, a number of league selects, and Penarol. This in the 1920s, and just after a tour of Spain saw a draw with Barcelona, and a win over Real Madrid, in a match over a unofficial Copa del rey. With all those triumphs you could say they should at least be above all the teams who won 1 Scottish Cup that decade. Though Aberdeen also beat South Africa that decade in a tour of there.

Also Inverness Caley and Thistle played as a select team in a friendly in the 1920s v Spurs, and beat them 3 2 yes it was a friendly but they did not have proper cross border tournys much then so maybe it counts more than a pre season friendly. 

So most notable results in late 20th Century were in seventy six, New Zealand lost 3 0 to Hearts, at home, and in 1979 Dundee beat New Zealand 8 1 at home.

Also Hearts drew with South Africa, 3 all in the late fifties, then in the last year as well of that decade, beat Australia, in that land, 7 1, then 7 1, then 8 2, 9 1, and six nil. and 9 0, and New South Wales six one, and also beat Victoria five nil, and Tasmania ten nil, and Western Australia, ten 1, maybe club friendlies no matter but they beat Torpedo Moscow six 1 in 3 years later,

Some say those Aussie matches were just B teams or selects but they could be said to be a team in a way, and many were proper games and teams we believe

Then in the 1970s, Dundee beat Australia B team 2 1,

Hearts beat Barbados 3 1 in the mid 80s, and drew with a Canada select in 1919 Plus they won and lost to South Africa in fifty four,

Also in 1979 Dundee e United beat a Japanese League select 2 0, and Burma 4 0, and Hibs beat Gibraltar 3 1 in 2013, .

It can also be said there were a lot of Scottish clubs touring Europe in the 1900s and 1910s winning by big totals against club sides that have big names now, From Norway to Denmark, to Poland, to Germany to southern Europe, but that is as they had not got started as clubs as early as Britain. But also beat a Sweden and a Denmark select in the 1910s,Plus St Mirren beat a North Spain select  in the 1920s, Plus Third Lanark beat Porto select and Lisbon select in the 1910s, and a Argentina slect I mean select in the 1920s, and a South Argentina select. Plus a Uruguay select.

Did I say a Inverness select beat Tottenham in the 1920s during a political visit,  decades before ICT, and Queen of the South beat Stade Reims, Racing Universitaire d'Alger the French North Africa cup holders, and Racing de Santander, on their way to winning invitation cup in 1930s French Algeria.

Orkney once played Hearts and lost, so a pan Scottish match in the 1970s, St Mirren beat the Isle of Man select, I mean Isle of Man select  five 0 in 1982 for example. one of the British Isles teams.  Shetland has also played the Faeroe Islands, Non Old Firm teams have had Scottish, Northern Irish, Welsh, and English and Irish internationals to name but a few, plus much more, from New Zealand, to Trinidad and Tobago, and the Netherlands, and Scandinavia. and Denmark, never mind Iceland and the Faeroes of course and Canada. Bulgaria and Japan for example, and Georgia, Morocco, and more, like Australia, Shetland won the Island games in 2005 above Aland Isles, Ynys Mon, Greenland, and the Falkland Islands, and Saare County and Guernsey, plus Orknye and Western Isles, Former Scottish territory the Manx won it in 2001, Orkney have beaten the Faeroe Islands, the Western Isles have beaten Gotland, while Shetland have beaten the Faeroes, Gbraltar and Guernsey, Hitra the Manx and Greenland. , 

Most successful non Old Firm Scottish trophy winners, as managers, 

1 Alex Ferguson 10 Trophies plus the Dryborough Cup and Tennants Sixes,  All Aberdeen. He would have been just on his trophies alone the 3rd most succesful club of the 20th Century after Rangers and Celtic, showing how dominant his era was, but most club's greatest eras, were better than their other eras in that way. 

2 Tommy Walker 7 Trophies, All Hearts

3 Hugh Shaw 3 Trophies, Hibs, 

3 Jim McLean 3 Trophies, All Dundee United, plus 1 European Trophy Runner up, which is effectively greater than a league, on some counts, 

3 Alex Smith 3 Trophies, 2 Aberdeen, 1 St Mirren, 

3 Dave Halliday 3 Trophies Aberdeen, if including the Southern league Cup when it became a national cup very briefly, 

7, 2 Trophies, Includes Eddie Turnbull, Aberdeen and Hibs, Scottish Cup and League Cup, plus 2 Dryborough Cups with Hibs, so maybe 4, though these Dryborough Cups were regarded as minor trophies unlike the 3 key trophies of Scottish football, and European trophies. Scott Symon, East Fife, Paddy Travers, Clyde, Hugh Spence, Kilmarnock, Dan McMichael Hibs,  George Anderson Dundee, Plus Callum Davidson 2 with St Johnstone. Kind of, Jonny Cochrane, a Scottish Victory Cup, and a Scottish Cup, with St Mirren, Also, Jock Stein, a Scottish Cup with Dunfermline, and a Summer Cup with Hibs,, likely the most minor of cups to have won, Alex Miller 1 League Cup, and just as minor as a a Summer cup, a Tennents Sixes, Jocky Scott, co manager with Alex Smith for 1 of his cup wins, and a Tennents sixes,

This is up to September 2021. 

I also have more than 4 opinions at the bottom of this page, as in, saying what I think are biggest Scottish football and sport teams, and 2 views, I have. 

Here's my football opinion section. 
My 5 plus big views on football and such I want a airing on. 
Firstly, I think the 3rd place play off in the world cup is a good thing. I like it as I think reaching the semi Final of the world Cup is a incredible achievement, and it's importance should be underlined by a special status of position. I have always felt "Runner up" in a many teams cup comp is underrated, along with 3rd in leagues. No I agree, maybe normal national cups do not need 3rd place play offs, indeed semi final is enough of a marker to remember that by. Though to be one of the 4 teams who reached the Fifa world cup semi final is such a achievement it needs honouring. I feel even 4th place is a better honour than semi final status, as it is something tangible. I do not think it is "outside the medals" like in the Olympics, as yes there are 3 medals in the Olympics., but this a different competition. Though I love the Olympics.  Written 2021. 


Secondly I am annoyed when teams list their honours, merged teams do not list their previous team's trophies. Like for example, in many almanacs Inverness Caley Thistle do not have listed the Highland Leagues of Caley and Thistle. Now that is forgivable, as maybe the books, and things listing their honours may see them as less status filled than the top tier trophies, and if you start listing them, then maybe you would maybe have to list minor trophies like friendly cups and such. The thing is I think, non league and such trophies are often listed for some teams, but not their previous merged team's honours. Then again, that would up Aberdeen's Aberdeenshire cup hoard, from 18 to much more as of the teams they merged in 1903, I think that would be OK, but just say that in brackets, somehow) The worst example of this, is I have seen books, that have neither Wimbledon AFC or Milton Keynes Dons, claiming their shock FA Cup win over Liverpool from 1988. Liverpool are a great team, won many cups so apologies for reminding Liverpool fans of that. The thing is, they should both be claiming the trophy with brackets explaining it is controversial as to who won it. Same for Livingston in terms of Meadowbank Thistle's hoard. To be fair I have read lots of teams in the North Wales coast claim a Welsh Cup, I am sure Conwy and Llandudno do, from the 1960s, won by a now kind of unmerged team called Borough United who represented the area, when all the top Welsh teams competed in the competition. So thats my view, they should claim it in brackets. Yes some MK Dons fans would get angry, and some Wimbledon AFC fans, would, but it is more annoying for none of them to claim it. Just put it in brackets, or say the whole story. I also think teams like Airdieonians, and Airdrie United are far more connected than some history books claim. Just as one of them went bust, lets face it most of the fans were the previous clubs fans, so in a sense they are the same club, after all a club is it's fans. Maybe there is some financial thing, that you can not say it, but like when they list the Challenge cup honours, Airdrie are listed as 2 different sides, when they are really the same club in terms of support. Written 2021. 

Also, I think Runner up should be more celebrated as a honour. After all some say you never remember who was second, but I think actually if you remember who finished first you normally remember who finished second, unless the event does not affect you so much. Indeed some Runner ups are rightly celebrated like the Dutch and Hungarians world cup runners up of the 1950s and 1970s. I just feel the gap between 1st and 2nd is so small, in many cases, second matters just as much. And some times, the person or team who were second would have been first another year. I feel in so many events it was so hard to be second, it is such a achievement. And sometimes second place is more of a achievement than first. Like being second in the world cup, or climbing Everest is greater than winning a local tourney or some lesser thing. Not that winning those lesser tourneys does not matter. I mean I am saying second is not first of the losers, anymore than first is, it is first of all the teams except first place. I think that is more akin with real life, where the second richest man in the world of banking or farming has achieved a great achievement just as much as the richest,  Written 2021. 

I also think golds is how you should rank the Olympics though, the team who wins the most golds goes higher up the medal table, as just imagine they just also gave medals to 4th and 5th, or just imagine there were only 10 competitors, well they would all win the same amount of medals, if all got a 1st to 10th medal. So Gold matters more. But we should not pretend Runner up is not a achievement, and a amazing one for most international and a great one for some national and such regionals even comps. I mean sometimes yes a team should win their local national cups more often, but sometimes in leagues it is hard to as they have less money than bigger teams. Written 2021. 


Also I dont get why the English League cup has 2 leg semi finals, in the 2020s, when so many teams complain about playing too many games. When so often, the semis have lower attendances up to now, than even league games. 

Also  I think the English Charity shield, could be turned into a overseas cup for the top 4 teams, maybe including some foreign teams. Maybe with a first game at Wembley. Instead of those overseas friendly tourneys.  Written 2021. 

Also what about, there could be a one off Tartan Cup. It could be the top 3 teams, like it could be Aberdeen v Celtic 1 game in Ireland, then Rangers Aberdeen in London, and the last game of this round robin on Tartan day in America Rangers v Celtic in Boston. Written 2021. 

Plus, how about, a 39th game, in Scottish context, it could be called the John Buchan series. as of the 39 steps. So how about the 3rd game of the split could be overseas as a extra game, with a reward for whoever was top at the end of the pre split season, being top team plays 6th, 7 th plays 12th etc. These games could be sold to bidders. If the money is not anymore than would have occurred those games could be played in their own team's grounds, at the highest of those teams. Maybe it would make more money. Maybe you could have 1 Celtic game overseas. Then again maybe it it would be better to just have 1 Celtic league game played in North America. I.E Livingston v Celtic. Maybe the 39th game could have been somehow arranged for Winter and the teams who do not get bids play in Spain or Mid East, in a 4 games in 1 day stadia. For the expats. Written 2021. 

Also for the Scottish Challenge Cup, I loved it when we had Welsh, and Northern Irish teams in, and as of Scotland's European results at club level I did not expect our second tier to dominate so well against the best Northern Irish and Welsh league teams. I was happy we used their resources to have some good nearby Celtic teams to play and they were up for it. Plus happy it helped Welsh and Northern Irish teams, giving them a extra fun thing to do, seeing the Welsh league does not have it's biggest teams, so it is nice we can help out, and Norn Ireland, is just that bit smaller in population, so just is unable to have such big teams as Scotland, but it does send a lot of money to Scottish football, so it is good we help them back. I am delighted only Scottish teams won. I dont think the Republic of Ireland, and English lower teams were that bothered, so maybe they did not need to be, they would be better for a Anglo Scottish 1970s style cup. But how about have a Manx select for 1 year, a Cornish team, for 1 year, like Truro, a Faeroese team, a Orkney Shetland and Hebrides select, and also invite one of lesser non league teams from Cumbria and also Northumberland. Not their best teams, like Blyth or Barrow, I mean a level below (so it is less likely they win) that and make it they play 2 years, once guaranteed at home v QOS or Gretna or Stranraer and once guaranteed away, and then another year but not V those 3 mentioned sides. Just as they are so close just to have somebody different. And also a Corby team as it so Scottish. Or even a Doncaster reserves team, as I dont want them winning the competition, but surely Doncaster reserves would be as good as Scottish Premier Under 21 teams, purely as Doncaster according to some options were never given back after the 12th Century treaty about it and Scotland's King David. Maybe even a London Scottish team if one exists of a sort Some even think having Man Utd and Sunderland under 21s may be a good idea. Maybe even a Liverpool select as of their and the city's Celtic history. Written 2021. 

Also, I dont get why Germany dont demand East Germany's medals are counted with the rest of Germany, in the Olympics all time medal table. Why count all the German regimes of the 20th Century in 1 total, which included wide extremes of state, including the more lovely modern West Germany, but also some very different regimes, but but with all that not count the east. I mean the Easterners were just as German or not German as West Germans even if the Easterners  mostly opposed the East's regime, it does not make any difference, surely that was not the medallists fault. Also why does Russia accept not having the USSR in their total, lets face it, it was a Russian dominated state in all reality. Then again as a British citizen maybe I should just keep quiet about that, but actually there are more Germans and Russians so I dont care if they are ahead or behind in the medal table. I should just enjoy it and not bother too much. ​I mean I suppose on that basis some may count some early 20th Century Australian and NZ medals as British as they were so closely aligned to Britain then. Though to be honest I do think Olympic medals tables need a bit of merging in terms of countries, needs a bit of sorting out. I mean it is complicated, maybe there could be variants. Written 2021.


Though on the other hand I love the idea of Scotland having played countries that have morphed into other lands. It would be like looking at a list of 14th Century games, Scotland V Transylvania or England v a Moorish province in South Spain. So that is fun to keep in record books. Scotland v the USSR, and even the Saar and such have had teams. 

I also think people should stop referring to rebuilt football stadium as totally new stadiums. So many times, like for the Millenium Stadium, and White Hart Lane, a new stadium is built and the new ones is partly over where the old one was, and people act like it is a new stadium. Surely it is just a rebuilt stadium, a new stadium, totally is one in a new place. After all most football stadiums over time have new stands and to a extent end up like Trigger's Only fools and horses broomstick, that sees the stick and brush replaced so it is a totally new broom, but they are always regarded as the same stadium too. Written 2021. 

For the Welsh League, I would say the Welsh Cup should have back the teams, the likes of Cardiff and Swansea, even their reserves, as their reserves will be very good, and also even the likes of Chester again, Yes it was embarrassing for a non league English team to win it at times, when Cardiff are much bigger, but who cares, as Welsh teams have won English cups, and now many much smaller Welsh teams have won the Welsh cup, so it does not look so bad if a non league English team wins the Welsh cup. Also I would ask if Welsh league teams can compete in the English non league cups, just as Wales is connected with England, But keep the Welsh league. As I think the Welsh league is a great thing to have and can not understand why so many people value it so little, as the title champions of the Welsh league is a great honour. Also my Welsh Cup ideas would say the European place goes to the Welsh League cup, but the Welsh cup would be regarded as most major. Also I think Welsh teams should keep in the Scottish Challenge Cup, and look at cross border comps, for the big Welsh teams with Scotland. Then you get the nationhood aspect and some variance in games. Written 2021. 

Another idea could be a Keltic Cup. A Keltic Cup, would be a competition, where the Scottish Welsh, Irish and Breton sides and Cornish compete. As a one off or more. I dont just mean the great idea of second tier, I mean the Old Firm, and Dons, Hibs, Hearts Dun Utd, etc,  the now huge Swansea and Cardiff, and Wrexham and Newport, plus Linfield, and 2 Dublin teams, plus a Truro team play Manx select and Rennes and Rouen etc. Or even just Scotland Wales and Ireland. Or even just Scotland and Wales. It would be a huge trophy if fans were interested. It could be a long comp in terms of years, or just a one off, celebrating the first times these nations played in football v each other.


Declare The Fairs Cup, the Rangers Ajax Super Cup, and 19th Century World Club Championships, official under Uefa as well as Fifa Rules, This would mean, Scotland has won 6 maybe 7 major European trophies, and reached up to end of 2022, Plus reached 10 major European finals, plus 1 maybe 2 European super cups, and 3 maybe 4 World Club  titles. Which would put it ahead of England in ratio of population terms, good for bragging rights. Though we should be chums with the English and every country of course. 

Stop on Wikipedia putting Intertoto cup as a major European trophy, when at times, it bordered on being it, when it had a final, and then it could be classed as a good minor trophy, but when it was just a thing about who got furthest in the Uefa cup, and that team could be knocked out in the Quarter Final it is no more a achievement than being the team from your country who got furthest in Europe that season, so should just count as a minor trophy maybe less significant than the furthest your team got in Europe, or their highest ever position in the league, sorry for offence caused there, 

Maybe have a trophy for 3rd place in Scotland, or a who is the highest East of Scotland team, trophy, or maybe that is just defetest, so maybe a bad view, 


Bring back the Latin Cup, for French, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian teams, for more money, and fun. 


Bring back the MItteleuropa Cup, also for more money, 

A other idea is the North Atlantic Cup, or a North Sea Cup, as in Scotland, the Scandinavian lands, and such. The North Atlantic cup depends on the Dutch and Portuguese, but do they need this, whereas I think the Nordic countries like British football, so would be up for the test in a purely North Sea Cup. The problem I think with a North Sea league is most Aberdeen and St Johnstone fans would be no more interested in Aberdeen v a team of a similar size to them in Scandiinavia, than they would with a team from Scotland, possibly less so, if it was not a exciting unusual Uefa Cup game. The only exception may be Aberdeen and Viking as of oil links. So I think it would have to be a cup, maybe even without the top teams, but probably it would need them fr interest sake. I do fear a North European league without the big teams, would attract no more interested per head than the national leagues, and maybe even less as Rangers and Celtic instead of fighting for the title may be mid table, and be less excited for instance, I think the main advantage, would not be that it would be financial, but would be the playing of higher level teams, and that could occur in a cup, where the top Scottish and Scandinavian teams could be in groups stages then a final with a min of 4 games, and max of 6. I think a North European league without the big teams, instead of being like Spanish or French or English league, attracting consumers globally, would be more like instead of sharing 100 pounds between 10 Scottish teams, be like sharing 500 pounds with 50 Nordic and Scottish teams. The only advantage would be the playing of more higher level teams, i.e the best team in Norway, rather than the 12 best in Scotland and vice versa for the Norweigian teams. Which is why a cup would be better. Maybe it could be a one off again.


Or even a non big 5 European leagues cup, where Uefa says the winner gets a Champs league place. Maybe splits in into Western Europe, and Eastern Europe versions. Also there is arguments at regionalising European trophies in earlier rounds more for global warming concerns. The risks though is Uefa could use that to cut out smaller countries entries in the champs league though is maybe not a great idea.

Maybe even have a Texaco cup style trophy, of the best Scottish teams or next best v English Championship, and if below that, how about Non Euro qualifiers v English League 1, Although I would strongly oppose the Scottish league ending or Celtic or Rangers joining the English League, I think a British Cup would be good, instead of the League Cup, and Scotland missed a trick when  offered it in the 1980s, but that could never happen now, other than a trophy just with the Old Firm, maybe the English Charity Shield if played overseas as a cup competition could have them. I am a fan of the League Cup though, so would prefer to keep both.

Aberdeen FC, should host a tournament, incpluding Wimbledon, FC, Milton Keynes Dons, and Hendon FC, as the Dons Cup, or maybe Hendon should.Or much better, have the same held at round robin style,  Hendon and Pittodrie, winner plays at the team drawn's out of a hat's ground, and losers have 3rd place play off likewise. Maybe even just a under 21 tourney.


Also it would great to bring back the Tennents sixes for Scottish football, maybe as just a one off, maybe even just for the Non old firm teams, as they would not want to risk it.

Its just a thought there for you all.


Also what about, its not my place to say, but maybe Clyde should call themself Cumbernauld Clyde, to get local support, but keep their heritage also it shounds like name of a character in a western.

Then again, why not have a Scottish League select minus the Old Firm, v Norwigan league select, minus their best. Maybe not actually, there would be risks of injuries. Maybe a lower league select would be better.

I say Welsh football is like this compared to Scotland. The top 4 teams, are SPFL premier size, Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, Newport and maybe Merthyr, maybe they are championship size. 
Then as Wales has half the population, it has less big cities, but also as of a more spread out demography than Scotland (even though it is smaller, in size, it's population is not as central beltised) comparatively, less big towns, of over 40,000 people, so less teams that make up the meat and potatoes of big sides like Killie and such. Then of those, Wales is spread out more, into more 20,000 people places, and many of the bigger places are more Rugby than football towns. In terms of the local civic pride, not the sport people play all the time. So the remaining small number of 40,000 people Welsh sides, are very small in number, and only a small number are football towns, and not as much as many Scottish ones. So they play in the Welsh league, with towns of places of 20,000 people. So I think the Welsh league is like the Scottish League one, without a big relegated championship team, and if you look at the Scottish league there are a few dozen Scottish teams, of that standard in the Junior leagues and non leagues, and that is the same for Wales. That is why the best Welsh league team is always likely good enough for the championship, and competitive against Premier teams. Because it will always be sensible for some big money guy to have a team winning the Welsh league, and so haveing a team a bit better than the rest so as big in size as a Scottish Championship club. I say the biggest Northern Irish teams, are Championship size, maybe a few, and the rest all lower league than even that and such.  Written 2021. 

Then for Northern Ireland, or the North of Ireland as some call it, my guess would be Linfield, are like maybe Partick Thistle sized, while Crusaders and Cliftonville, are maybe old Clyde in Glasgow, or in between East Fife and Raith Rovers sized, and below that they are all East Fife sized, and smaller, with Derry probably Dunfermline sized, but in the Republic of Ireland's league, for historical reasons. 

Highly controversial view

I say Aberdeen's rivalry with Rangers, is not like some try and claim, two equal prize fighters squaring up against eachother. I also claim the rivalry did not start in the 1980s. I say Aberdeen's rivalry with Rangers in it's heart is exactly the same as Kilmarnock and St Mirren's rivalry with Rangers. It is just Aberdeen are the king of the non Old Firm teams, (I say this as Aberdeen only has 1 major club in the city, while Edinburgh has 4, the 2 big footy teams, the rugby side, and Scotland's Murrayfield, so backers only have one direction in 1 city and 4 in others, which is why the Dons have bigger backers), And this made the Aberdeen size, of being the standard bearer of the non Old Firm teams. There are loads of clubs who see Rangers as the bigger rival, look at Killie fans who moan about Rangers coaches going to Glasgow. It is just as they seem the more the established big side, at least Celtic seem a little outsider, but Rangers despite also being a working class club, seem the big team, to beat even when the Celts are better. And from there Rangers fans were annoyed at Aberdeen having a better record v them than other non old firm clubs, But still the rivalry is about beating Rangers, the big side, and it is just Aberdeen are the standard bearer of the non old firm teams. Thats my view.  So really it is about knocking the established team off their perch, and Rangers just get annoyed about the obsession. Its not like Leeds v Man Utd or some such of 2 comparitive equals, and cities of historic rivaries, its Aberdeen's it's own city, which really no more sees Glasgow as a rival as it does anywhere else most of the time.

The lists below were written in 2021, by me myself. 

The biggest anomolies in Scottish Football history in my view. Actually it is spelt anomalies. 

I also have anomaly lists for Wales, Scottish sport and England, and the world. 

1 Hibs going 114 years without winning a Scottish Cup. The biggest anomaloy as during this era Hibs were always a big club, maybe in the 1920s and 1930s they were getting poorer, but they were the best or 2nd club in Scotland in the late 1940s to mid  1950s, and had great teams in the 1970s and in many other eras, infact during such as the 1980s and 1990s, and 2000s were stronger than most teams. 
The only argument why it did not happen is that the league was very competitive in the late 1940s and 1950s, in Scottish terms, so there were many teams to win a trophy, so when they should have won it they did not, and also at least they won the leagues, which is more important. Then in other eras, they at least won league cups, but they did not win that many in comparison to their fellow big clubs, Hearts and Aberdeen. Then again they did win those Dryborough cups, which counts as the leading minor trophy. What is more bizarre that of the 6 or so times they were in the 2nd tier, the one where they were in the longest was when they won the trophy completely at odds, with most non old firm trophy wins, as usually trophy wins are when the team is doing well in the league.  That could be explained away by how it was the relatively compared to the top tier, at the time, the strongest second tier ever with Hearts and Rangers also in the league for a while while they were down, and Dundee United. ALso maybe Hibs had invested heavily to get out of the 2nd tier, more so than the other times they went down. 
Still the amount of teams who won the Cup other than Hibs was long. You could explain it that in most of that time, Hibs were not the top team, or even top 2, maybe even top 3. So had no right most of the time to expect the cup. 
2 Hearts 42 year wait for a trophy. For what are the 3rd or 4th biggest club in Scotland to go this long without any of the 3 major trophies was unusual. Hearts had won a sack load of trophies in the late 50s and early 60s, but then won nothing till 1996.Very strange, but explainable as, you could say maybe they won their fair share in the early 60s, then just went on a long run, where first of all Celtic and Rangers dominated, then Hibs and Aberdeen and Dundee United shone through, with Hearts relegated for the first times. Only really in 1986 did they come back very strongly, and even then it was more of a achievement to be runner up so cloesly in the league, than to claim they absolutely deserved a league win, after all there were 35 other games to win the trophy without that last game slip up. Then Rangers became dominant, and Hearts were great to get back on their feet under Jim Jefferies and get that cup finally. I say maybe the best team each season should EXPECT to win trophies, maybe the second be dissapointed not to, maybe the 3rd just about, but the 4th best team in a era (even if they are competitive with the best 2 or 3, which is less the case for the 4th best team in Scotland each season, than in the pre 1990s era( though then the 4th best were probably less far ahead of the rest than sometimes occurs now)), are still a little bit depending on good luck to win a trophy as there are 3 teams better than them, and most of that time, Hearts were not even a top 4 best team, as of Aberdeen and Utd.
3 Aberdeen's 4 and a half decade wait to win a trophy after formation. Not so unusual, but they were quite good from soon after they started, and with such a base, maybe should have won a trophy earlier. It is debatable if the Scottish Cup or Southern League Cup was the first trophy. Really though the West of Scotland had so much of the talenet, and football arrived in the Granite City later than the other big cities, so maybe it is no suprise it took time. Maybe perversely if there were 2 Aberdeen sides it would have been sooner, as of fluking a cup, but then probably Aberdeen would have been weaker, and not won so much.
4 No non Old Firm team winning the league  from 1986 to 2021 and counting, so beating the record Aberdeen stopped in 1980, of Old Firm consecutive title wins by a long way, as that run had started in the 1960s. Looking at how Atletico Madrid, win so many titles in Spain over Barca and Real, you could predict one team would have squeaked through. Maybe Hearts in 1986, Aberdeen in 91, Dundee Utd in that late 1990s run, Hearts under Jim Jefferies, or Romanov, or maybe Aberdeen under McInnes, of the 2 to 3 times they were running Celtic close at stages. Though in perspective, of those 3 and half decadesm I mean decades  I think all those seasons were the only times the Old Firm were strongly challenged, maybe Aberdeen had a couple of other early 90s challenges, but none as close as these. And on only 2 occaisons I mean occasions did a Non Old Firm team get close enough to challenge on the last day. So to be fair maybe it is explainable by how Rangers were spending so heavily in the David Murray era, and Aberdeen and Dundee Utd dropped massively from the late 80s, maybe Aberdeen's drop was delayed tiill the mid 90s, but from then each were not the challengers they were in the 80s. And Hearts most seasons under Romanov did not have the financial muscle of Celtic and usually Rangers. So the Old Firm were just able to grind the point out, if there was just one Old Firm side, a few titles would have been won, and maybe if Aberdeen or Hearts had had one of their best seasons the rare times, both Old Firm teams were dropping then it could have occurred, but sadly that was not so. To be fair to McInnes, Aberdeen had been out of it for a decade and half, so the fact he got Aberdeen to challenge was the great success, it was the times they were nowhere near in the other years that were with Hearts why other teams have not taken a flag. I say the likliest chance is if Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen, get a super strong team one season, and get in the high 70s in terms of points, I think more is unlikely unless they get loads of cash, and then both Old Firm teams do bad that season, which is a possiblity, as every so often one gets lower points than normal, if their are teams are going though deliberate periods of change, planned periods of change, or just a team ages quicker than they thought, and such. It should happen some time. 
5 Aberdeen's 17 year wait for a trophy ending in the League Cup win the 2010s. Well it was a bit longer than you should expect, but then again, maybe teams win their trophies in bundles, yes for some, of just 1 and lots of runner ups, but that could be it, and the bad eras, go in bundles of years as well. After all a really good Aberdeen team will be liklier to be good the next season, than a poorer Aberdeen, so that is what occurred. And it is not as if Aberdeen were challengeing that much for trophies in that era, Hearts were doing better in the 2000s. 
6 Dundee United not winning a Scottish Cup till the early 90s. Not that bad, as lets face it they won 2 league cups, and their title win, was essentially a cup win on the last day, they reached a Uefa Cup Final, which some see as a other cup loss, I see it as a amazing achievement to have got that far. In reality if the Scottish Cup and League Cup were just called the same name, then Dundee Utd won their fair share. What was strange was the losses to teams they were favourites versus, Motherwell, and St Mirren, and later St Johnstone. But explainable away by how, yes when Rangers and Celtic are faves to win they are big bucks sides, but I do notice if both Old Firm teams go out, people act like the new favourites for the trophy are as strong a faves as the Old Firm were, but in reality it drops from being 2 dominant teams, who can beat almost any  team 4 times a season, to the liked of Dundee Utd or Hibs, versus a Motherwell or St Johnstone tea, who they normally do not beat 4 times a season, and who also are a very good version of their teams I mean the likes of St J, so it is not that much of a shock if the so called underdogs win there, as these are specially good versions of those teams, normally to have reached a cup final, like it will normally be the best St J team of the decade or best cup specialist St J that reaches a final, rather than the least formidable of the decade. And anyway Dun Utd  they have won it twice anyway now. It is amazing that Hearts lost the league on the last day at Dens park in 1986 but Utd won it in 1983, at the same place, so kind of makes sense one of them would fail, and one would succeed. And when you consider Dundee United never finished 2nd up to now in the league, then that last day win was a amazing cup final style win, as no other time were they so close. 
7 The lack of trophies I mean trophies won by the 3 big non Old Firm teams. Seeing how perenialy strong Hibs, Aberdeen and Hearts are, you may have thought they would have won more. But I say, it is not such a suprise. It makes sense when you see their resources and ability to buy such a high quality of player, and take off the other sides. Surely Rangers and Celtic gobble up the majority of the trophies maybe 2 thirds, sharing them between eachother. Then when they miss out, the rest are won, half by the other big 3 or even big 4 if you include Dundee United, and the rest by the the other sides. That makes sense as lets face it Aberdeen Hearts and Hibs do not win every games against the other sides, so why should they expect ton win every cup game. The fact Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs have each won 4 leagues, kind of looks like there is a statistical reason for why they have.
8 The lack of Old Firm European Trophy Wins. This is a little unusual as they are 2 huge sides, and have done very well in Europe at times, especially the 1960s and 70s, and Rangers had big bucks in the 1990s. What is more unusual is comparing with the rest of the league, Aberdeen have won as many European trophies, more if toy count e Super Cup, and Dundee Utd, have reached a European Final. Then looks how Dunfermline to Killie all have got far. But maybe explainable by how European football was more competitive in the 1960s, like a Welsh non league team beat a Serie A team in the 1960s, a Highland League team beat Dundee after they won the league, and clubs from across Europe could challenge just like how English country village cricket teams could beat their counties in the 1930s. So smaller Scottish teams getting far is less remarkable when you consider teams across Europe were getting far Though still a great achievement. Yes Rangers and Celtic reached a few cup finals they also lost, including the 2 in the 2000s, but in reality compared with other smaller European countries the achievements of the Old Firm in Europe is actually pretty good. Yes not compared to Barca and Ac Milan, but yes compared to most other lands. And of course no small other than Portugal, the medium and sized Netherlands, other than Scotland has won the European Cup, so a great success there. Well you could count Serbia actually, while Romania is quite populous really. Though both those were big achievements as well. 
9 No Scotland team getting past the Group stages even womens teams of a major tourney. Explainable as well other countriues have great players as well, and actually there were only 8 teams in the 1992 Euros, so that was a good stage to reach, and there were not that many teams in the 1970s world Cups. And it was good enough to just get to those world cups, many lands smaller than Scotland never got to those world cups, 74, 78, 82 and 86. and 90. Plus it is almost a artificial barrier to state, I mean if it went that round it would be another. 
10 Celtic long wait for a trophy in the 1990s. Not that bad but it was quite while, but explainable as they were not as good as Rangers or Aberdeen at the time, Aberdeen were still on the crest of a wave from the 80s. 
11 No Rangers cup win from the early 2010s, to 2021, Well the other clubs could say, welcome to my world, they just were not good enough yes they reached many semis but only a super best team can be disappointed not to have won cups regularly. 
12 No cup for Mother well, Mid 90s  to 2021, Strange as they were so good in the league in that time, you may have thought they could do it, I mean lots and lots of runner ups and 3rd places in the league. To be fair though though they were good, they were never a title challenger 2nd or 3rd, it was always best of the rest. If anything they can happy to have won at least one, and to have stayed strong in the league. 
13 St Johnstone 2 cups in 2021. Well explainable by how they had a good team, and this sometimes happens, like Clyde in the 1950s, and East Fife in the late 1940s, very often a provincial team that wins a cup also reached another cup final in the same couple of years, like Inverness, in the 2010s and lost it, but this time such a side won it, maybe it makes sense that one time, a good team had the players to do it twice. 
14 Not many cups for McIness, I think Aberdeen only winning 1 cup was strange, as take away Celtic and they would have been a cinch for a couple more maybe a few, but then again Celtic were just so dominant is the explanation, and had some way of beating Aberdeen over and over again. 
15 Inverness Livi and Ross County winning cups soon after their formation. Well maybe they were just so up for making history, and so many people were willing to invest in this dream, so they became the most likely non big 5 teams to win. Once they had done it there was no big urge from fans and owners or players to do it again. They had been there and got the t shirt. 
16 No win v Brazil in football despite nearly a dozen tries. Strange as other small countries have succeeded, but the fact is lots of those wins were actually not regarded as full international matches by Brazil. Most times Scotland played Brazil it was a major tourney or one where they were full teams also taking on England, (one of the 10 biggest teams)  so wanting to put in a effort. And to be fair we have had some goals and draws, and also look how we have beat the English, the Dutch the Germans, and French at good levels, also Spain and the CIS/Russia/USSR, and USA. Plus the Argentinians. Only Italy have Scotland been quite weak at beating other than Brazil of the top sides. So it is maybe no surprise Scotland have one of the big countries they have never beaten so far. And to be fair Brazil are the best, it is only Italy and Germany who rival them across the span of football, indeed Uruguay and Hungary have had times they were weaker than Scotland for a decade or so. 
17 Queen of the South never in the premier. Strange that a reasonable sized town, have not been in the premier, but on the bright side they reached a cup final in the 2000s, and actually it is a little away from the central belt where football is even more fanatical, and they do not have as big a crowds as central belt teams town  of the same size. Still it would be nice to see them up there for a season or so. 
18 Dunfermline no cup since the late 1960s. To be fair, why should a provincial club of any the 40,000 people towns, expect to win a cup, when  they have less resources that is why they celebrate their wins so well, even cup finals and shock wins. 
19 Dundee no cup since the 1970s, well the club have had bad spells, and have been overshadowed by Dundee United, and have not been that close most of the time, so that explains that. 
20 No East Kilbride team in the league. Strange but should happen when the Lowland league team go up, so for this among the biggest towns in Scotland, it should happen soon. Then again New Town clubs have less crowds than old industrial towns. 

21 Also Motherwell and Airdrie not winning the league more in the  1920s-30s, but I blame the fact Rangers were just so strong. 

22 Some may feel Celtic and Rangers winning so much is an anomoly but it is as they buy the best players of the other teams, and others and are great organisations. 

23 Some may say Aberdeen winning so much in the 1980s was a anomoly but actually they had to have a good spell some time, and can be proud to have come good when Rangers were spending more on their stadia, and Celtic were not as good as the 60s, and other places were hurt by industrial decline and the Granite City was helped by oil. And they had been coming good for a decade, and always dark horses of nearing being a major team. 

24 Other teams winning 1 off trophies, well it had to happen some times for them. 

25 Rangers went a long time not winning the Scottish Cup in the 1980s, well it was as Aberdeen were so good, and Celtic,  and Rangers won their fair share of league cups, 

26 Why have Rangers won so many league cups almost as many as Scottish cups. Well maybe it is as the Scottish Cup had a variety of winners that was larger pre 1945, and has become even narrower in variety of winners especially since the 1970s, and some changes like the Premier League starting , and the league ground receipts entirely going to home teams, then the Bosman ruling and TV money, more so for bigger teams; So actually it was not a case of their League Cup total having to catch up with 40 years of domination in the Scottish Cup, it was more a small lead for their Scottish Cups, but then they won so many League Cups, but maybe it was as just some thing of they won 1 cup, some seasons, and it was like, they picked that longer straw by chance. Though I do wonder if the best team win the league, then I wonder if a team has a much better first 11 compared to their team as a whole, if they are a tiny bit more likely to win the league cup compared to the Scottish Cup, as of injuries become commoner, and the stresses of the end of the season, making games more a little more 50 50 (though still more favoured to the higher calibre players of Old Firm teams v other teams, and top 5 teams v other teams) in the Scottish cup, as the season goes on, than the Scottish Cup. The conventional wisdom is the Scottish Cup is the greater trophy as of its history, even though there is little difference other than when the final is. Also Fergie at Aberdeen claimed he tried harder in a the Scottish Cup, than the League cup before 1986, though he is a expert at mind games, as the greatest Aberdeen manager, so maybe he was just doing mind games to explain the more Scottish cups, and less league cups, there, as the footballing genius that he is. Though there is not much reason to not believe him really. 

27 Celtic had a bad era in the 40s and 50s. I say it is as they were maybe damaged during the war and found it hard to get out of the pit, and once they did they were flying again. Looking at other teams winning trophies in that era, it is a bit like how non old firm teams won a lot of trophies at the start of the period where Rangers were in the lower tiers. See case notes, for higher entry there Case 11, of Rangers not winning that many trophies.

28 Aberdeen went over 20 years without winning at Ibrox, 1991 to 2010s. Strange in a way, but actually Aberdeen were quite below their par in many of those seasons, and Rangers were at their best, also Aberdeen did win loads of times at Pittodire, v them, and even at Hampden, plus the fact is they won in 1991, I think it was, and in the 2010s, twice, and haf many  draws and Rangers were out of the top league for a while. Aso Aberdeen had good runs v Killie and Dundee at times then as well long winning streaks, it likely makes statistical sense somehow, So it kind of makes sense, though it a big gap, they maybe bundled their wins at Ibrox on either side of it, and it coincided with some bad spells, for the Dons, and good ones for the Gers. Also I am sure Killie and Dundee have had great runs v some teams in that period. 

Other sports 
1 No Scottish Grand slam since the 1990s, not strange as it is tough and Scotland have less rugby resources in terms of rugby towns, than Wales, England, France and maybe even Ireland. 
2 Colin Montgomerie not winning a major. Then again other Scots did like Lawrie, and Stephen Hendry stopped Jimmy White winning a snooker title, and Andy Murray won his, it was just bad luck Colin Montgomorie did not get one, but he was the player of the Ruder Cup, so a Grand Slam really.  I mean Ryder Cup. but Ruder Cup is what it was when some fans got rowdy once. But usually they are not rowdy and rude, and it is a great competition of friendship between the EU & GB and USA, 
3 Scotland never beating NZ at rugby so far. Well not bad as unlike football you can not really fluke a win v a much much superior team. Yes you can fluke a win where the team is playing a bit better but the Southern Hemisphere were on a other level at rugby till the 2000s, and are still a bit ahead, so it was not that amazing, we did get a draw though. And we have had great records, v Aus, England at home, France, and SA, and actually have at times been better than Wales and Ireland. Plus of course Fiji, Japan, Italy, and Argentina, and Western Samoa, and Romania and Georgia. 

4 Scotland's best Rugby teams include so many from the borders. Well it is as they are so interested.

5 Scotland going about 40 years without winning at Twickenham. Well it is not that amazing as England are a strong rugby power, so it conincided with some great seasons for the English, but also home advantage is suprisingly strongt in rugby. Meanwhile Scotland had loads of wins at Murrayfield v the English, so it was a bit lomnger than you might expect if you look at how good Scotland were in the 80s and 90s, but England were quite good most of that time, but in the 2000s and 2010s, England were ranked a comparitevly large way above Scotland so maybe it was a tough taks to beat them there, and Scotland did get a draw at least once, but in the end Scotland stopped the streak, so very sweet. Also Scotland have had streaks of losesses at Cardiff, Dublin and Paris, and vice versa England and France at Murrayfield, and Wales and Ireland as well. It was a bit long, but then again home advantage does tell, and England had some good teams then, and much better Scotland beat the English a lot of times at Murrayfield in that time, and France and Australia and more. .

1 Never reaching a world cup or Euros for years. 1950s, to 2010s. Well explainable by how other countries have great players as well. 
2 And when Wales did reach them Wales got very far. Well maybe explainable by how, to get to the tourneys Wales had to be very good, to beat seeding problems and such, and how other sides have bigger grounds, and so to do this had some amazing players, and used that well. So just flew when they got there. 
3 The lack of Cardiff and Swansea English cup wins. Well not that bad as actually many places in England have not won that many and are bigger places. 

4 How Wales are so good at rugby for the smallest population of the 6 nations. Its as South Wales valleys love it so much. I would compare it to a steam cooker of the best players all so interested against each other there.


1 Leicester winning the EPL. Well maybe it was as the big 4 had a drop, where they were all resetting their squads, and actually less fancied sides, like this used to win the EPl all the time. 

2 No English international football major trophy in 1967 to 2021. Well maybe it was just as other countries also have great players. 

The World, 

1 India don't get many Olympic medals, even though highly populous China, and the USA and Russia / Ussr have done, Well its as they are not that interested in these sports, look they are good at cricket. And they do well at the Commonwealth games.

2 Norway do so well in the Winter Olympics, well its as they try so hard

3 New Zealand are so good at rugby, well its as they are so interested in it. Some say the same about South Africa, but it is a bigger country, though I see what they mean in some ways. New Zealand are good at lots of sports. Rugby Union, Cricket, Rugby League, and Netball, But of course not so good at football, but even then pretty good at a lot. I suppose they have specialised at them, to the detriment of footy, which is the world's game, I mean Dundee beat them by loads once at soccer.  The rugby thing has worked for them though very well.

4 So few French teams have won European trophies. Well maybe its as the big clubs are not as big. as Italy, England, Germany and Spains, well until PSG started investing so heavily. 

5  Russia dont dominate football in Europe, Well maybe it is as they invest less and are far from the West European centre of football. 

6 The Dutch have never won a world cup and only 1 Euro champs. Very unlucky for such a incredible amount of teams with 3 World Cup runners, and many semi finals, well maybe it is as though are great, they just were not good enough, and when they started doing great there were lots of other great footballing countries, and always one to stop them. Indeed only in the 1970s would have said they were the favourites, and some say, really only in 1974. Indeed most lands who have won loads, were also runners ups at times when they were the favourites. But the lack of Euro champs is unusual.

7 Barcelona took so long to win a European Cup. Well its as there were lots of other great teams, and they just were not at that level till then. 

8 The Germans have such a great record at international football. Well its as they have so many people, and are always producing great players, just like you can never write off the Old Firm, it is the same for the Germans, except of course like when they are 3 nil down and being out played, that kind of thing, then its all over. 

9 Brazil did not win the 2014 world cup. Well they just did not have the players, and the other best sides were better. 

10 Poland dont do that great at football, Well its as they are not that interested comparatively and did well in the 70s. 

11 Hunagry did not win the 1954 World Cup. Strange as they beat West Germany so strongly in a earlier round (Though it was a weakened W G team) , but then again they got to the final, and won lots of Olympics, so should not be too unhappy and if the Euros started earlier, they could won it.

12 Greece winning the Euros in the 2000s. Well all the other sides who won the Euros were either consistent major forces in the game, or teams, with great great great players renknown around the world. Although Greece had good players none were as well known as the Laudrops, and such for Denmark in 92, or such, so I say maybe as Greece invested so much in the Olympics this had a impact on sports even football, and they had a manager who was good in the German league a decade before with Kasierslautern, winning their German league, the German Bundesliga, but the manager thing well every team has a manager who has done something great, or most, what matters more is the specialness of certain players. 


I say the biggest teams Scottish football in order are, nothing for anything to get annoyed about it is just by silly view, Celtic and Rangers, followed by the remaining four big, big city teams, Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs and Dundee United,

Then the next group is, the big town clubs, Motherwell, Kilmarnock. St Mirren, Dunfermline, Dundee, Falkirk, Partick, St Johnstone, Inverness, Livingston, Queen of the South, Morton, Raith Rovers, Ayr United, Airdrie, Hamilton, and as of the backing,  of a owner, Ross County, Yes Dundee and Partick are from the big cities but they have fallen a bit in support behind their city rivals, though Dundee could catch Utd. Dundee were getting much lower attendances than Utd in the 90s, but are not that much lower when they are in the same league in the 2010s.  Written 2021. 

Then some established smaller places, clubs, East Fife, Dumbarton, Alloa, Cowdenbeath, Arbroath, then a number of league sides, around twenty, including Queens Park, then a number of about 30 Lowland league, and Junior and Highland League sides, and then tens of smaller sides even that that. Of all sorts of towns, but factoring in population.

The changes in the future could be Dundee become a equal of other big city teams, unlikely but maybe, and least likely of all maybe the Dundee sides merge, and it successfully merges a team affinity for all Dundee, making it possibly not much smaller than the other 3 below the Old Firm, but I think that is very unlikely.  Also maybe East Kilbride become a major big town team, with the every so often millionaire investor making any team below these big town teams, vie with them like Ross County for their places. Maybe long term small clubs in big cities could be important like Cove or Edinburgh City, though not comparable to the big city teams, but though maybe Partick, though very unlikely could become a proper big city team in terms of size of the club to rival the bigger 6, in attendances and financial backing, competing with the likes of the other big city teams, Yes they are in a big city but Rangers and Celtic have too much of the city's support for them to be classed with Hearts and Aberdeen etc. This list factors in, fans, wealth of long term owners, and trophy wins, and attendances, and success, mostly about recent successes, not just trophies but league positions, as that is affected strongly by the size of the club. The biggest debates is are Rangers or Celtic bigger well Is ay it is whoever has been winning the league most recently, and are Hearts the Dons or Hibs bigger, well Hearts do have bigger crowds, but Aberdeen have more money, but I shall say attendances matter more in size of club. I think maybe as there are so many sport teams in Edinburgh, maybe Aberdeen have a easier job getting the rich backer, than even Hearts, as Edinburgh have Murrayfield, more rugby and Ice Hockey teams, and the 2 big Edinburgh teams, which at times is good for excitement, but maybe splits rich backers in Edinburgh and makes some backers not want o alienate rival supporters, unlike Aberdeen where backing Aberdeen should not alienate many Aberdonians. , Though that just means Aberdeen's recent successes are even more of a achievement, if they are 4th instead of 3rd. so no shame on the Dons there. Same for Hearts. This is the 2021 view on this, not much different to 2010 views there. 

In terms of other teams and Sports, and such, maybe Scotland football and Rugby team, would go just behind the Old Firm in size, then also Glasgow and Edinburgh rugby would be in the Killie and such category of size of club, and the Ice hockey teams, maybe when there is a big basketball team as well,  a bit smaller, and the other rugby teams, in with the clubs outside the big towns clubs, I mean smaller than the likes of Raith. Then the biggest shinty, the biggest netball club and national side, and golf clubs, get in the category with the Brechins and such of the world or maybe smaller. Scotland Cricket team would be in that category as well. Probably Scotland women and rugby teams as well at the moment, While the biggest Scottish womens football teams,  would maybe be in the East Fife etc Dumbarton category or a bit smaller, they could have potential to reach the status of Killie sized clubs, you could say they are merging with men's teams as in becoming part of their organisations in the 2020s, so maybe really shall just be lumped in with their status really. I would say those biggest of Scottish womens footy clubs would not even have been the size of Brechin and such in the 1990s, but are now of that comparable size in the 2020s.  Scotland Netball are 3rd in Status of the womens sports team I think. Then Athletics clubs are below in terms of size Scottish non league clubs, likely. But Scotland Commonwealth games team, would be in the status of with the Killie sized clubs and such I say. I bet if you include Junior teams, and nonleague teams for football the other sports could put this list at over 100 clubs. Yes there are local groups like sports teams, for people just play against with no spectators but I would not include them. What is sure is Scottish football teams would dominate such a list right through. I say the most likely big change could be Scottish women's football team rise to be a top 10 status team, or maybe top 20, and maybe Scottish Olympic team could occur not that I oppose or support that, and they could be a top 10 status team, as Scotland does like its athletics, and sports.  I would say tennis though we have Andy Murray does not have teams in that way,, but maybe individual Scottish sportsmen and women could be on this list amalgamated and be in the top 10, or some such. If put as individuals every so often they could be in the top 20, like Andy Murray or Colin Montgomerie his peak and the like. Though I would prefer to list them as individual sports, or even just lump all the best boxers, and golfers and all indie sports guys together. So yes, if Scotland has no great golfer one year, they would have someone in one sport. So in that sense that group may go just behind Dundee United or even higher. Oh yes, Scotland Curling are bowls are probably football non league sized